Einstein's special relativity is sometimes popularized with statements like: "moving clocks run slower than stationary clocks and moving rods are length contracted relative to stationary rods". The problem is that special relativity also states that there can be no absolute motion; so how can one define "moving" and "being stationary"?
The usual answer is that all motion is relative and you can take any inertial frame and declare it the "reference frame" against which all other motions can be measured. This however cannot mean that all other inertial frames, moving relative to this one, must now have slower clocks and contracted rods.
To illustrate this, consider two flashes happening at the same spot, one after the other, say with a ten seconds interval as timed in the reference frame. Two identical vehicles happen to pass in opposite directions, just as the first flash occurs. Assume that the vehicles maintain identical (but opposite) speeds and the occupants measure the distance traveled and the time it took before the second flash was observed (seen). Because light travels at the same speed in all directions in every inertial frame, the observers in the vehicles must get the exact same results.
Now the dilemma: The two vehicles were moving relative to each other and special relativity predicts that their clocks and rods must behave differently due to their relative speed. However, if the vehicles would stop and the occupants compare results, they will find that, within experimental error, they recorded the same distances and the same times.
At ordinary road speeds, this is probably an impractical experiment - the errors will be larger than the effect being looked for. Put the same experiment in space, with ultra fast spacecraft and ultra sensitive equipment, and the results must be identical.
For the scientists out there: how do you explain this apparent paradox in special relativity?
SL: Your Aerospace Watchdog
Comments
The Twins Paradox and Scruffys' origonal question
June 17, 2008 by conm, 1 year 23 weeks ago
Comment: 30698
Cornelius R. Morton
Scruffy, this thread has been a treat to explore and a great learning experience as well as a reinforcement of the KISS principal. There are eight to ten various solutions to the twins paradox available on the web of varying complexity. One of the Minkowski diagrams I tried allowed the traveling twin to view some portion of the stationary twins time line, dependent upon the velocity chosen, during the first part of the flight and the last part of the flight and swept through the central portion. This could be viewed by viewing incremental frames during acceleration but using 1 km increments for a velocity of 0.6c would require some 360,000 frames. Rube Goldberg would be proud. Following is what I have found and my take on the twins paradox.
Everyone seems to agree that the away twin ages less than the home twin. This has also been tested at least twice. In 1971 Havele and Keating had five cesium clocks synchronized. Four were sent around the world on commercial airliners, one pair east and the second pair west, upon their return the clocks were compared to the at rest clock. The results were in accord with GR and SR. GR pertaining to the effects of the earth’s gravitational field ( clocks speed up as the gravitational field decreases with altitude) and SR with the clocks slowing down due to relative velocity. 600 mph did not equal 30,000 ft so the traveling clocks ran a bit faster than the at rest clock but the difference was equal to theory within the accuracy of the equipment. This was repeated in 2005 by the National Physics Laboratory in the UK. The clocks were better and the trip was from London to Washington DC and return. This time the results were within 4% of theoretical. It seems that the only argument remaining is what the twins see, experience, during the experiment.
One item that has not been mentioned concerns the reference frames involved. The home observers’ frame is an inertial frame, if he were blindfolded and seated he would have no way of determining if he was in an un accelerated motion or motionless. He would of course know that the traveling observer was moving with respect to him as he watched the ship take off and accelerate away. As acceleration was involved and would be on several more occasions he knows that he cannot treat the traveling observers’ frame as an inertial frame, in consequence he cannot expect symmetry between their observations. As the traveling observer is in motion he can anticipate that the traveling clock will run slower than his. The traveling observer on the other hand has no trouble realizing he is in motion as any acceleration is felt as a change in velocity and or direction, obviously he is not in an inertial frame. As the traveler has direct knowledge that he is in motion he cannot assign his motion to another object. Thus each observer is limited to his clock and immediate surroundings. The stationary observer may be on a park bench with a pretty girl wondering why time is passing so fast while the traveler is bored staring at his clock wondering why it is so slow.
Lewis Carroll Epstein in his book Relativity Visualized presented a view of spacetime that is a bit easier to get ones arms around. In his view space and time are inseparable and there is only one possible velocity through spacetime and that is the velocity of light. An observer in an inertial frame views himself as only moving through time, not space. A second observer that is moving in relation to the first is seen by the first as moving through space and time. If vt is the velocity through time and vs is the velocity through space and c is the speed of light through spacetime then c^2 equals vs^2 plus vt^2. Then when moving through space vt = ( c^2 – vs^2)^1/2. Normalizing so that all velocities are expressed as a percentage of c, with c = 1 then vt = (1 – vs^2)^1/2 which is the Lorentz transform. This view of spacetime makes it relatively easy to understand how two observers in two inertial frames that are in relative motion can perceive each other as the one in motion with the slow clock. On page 88 of Relativity Visualized, Epstein illustrates the solution of the twins problem and notes the absence of relative motion because the traveling twin is fully cognizant of his motion.
In your original post you posed;
“This however cannot mean that all other inertial frames, moving relative to this one, must now have slower clocks and contracted rodsâ€.
Yes it does. If you select some other frame and determine that his clock is running at some factor, Y, slower than your clock and his rod is shorter than yours by the same factor then in his frame he will see your clock slower than his by the same factor and your rod shorter than his by the same factor. This is because each perceives the other moving at the same relative velocity and gamma is dependent only on relative velocity.
In regards to the two moving vehicles, it is perhaps easier to see if an observer is stationed at the light source. As simultaneity has been established in the description the only concern is what the light observer sees. As each vehicle pass him at the same velocity gamma in each case is the same. He sees each clock running slower than his by the exact same amount and the distance each traveled during the time between their perception of the light flashes is the same. Each vehicle stops in relation to the light source and each other, they are in the reference frame of the light observer. Comparing notes the light observer notes their times are shorter than his by the same amounts and agree with each other.
Re: The Twins Paradox and Scruffys' origonal question
June 17, 2008 by Scruffy, 1 year 23 weeks ago
Comment: 30700
Cornelius wrote:
I think the statement "must now have slower clocks and contracted rods" referred to the fact that for purely inertial frames in motion relative to each other, there is no way that both can have a slower clock than the other one. The mutual observation of time dilation and length contraction can then be classified as 'illusionary', or just a measurement problem, I guess.
Truly inertial clocks with a relative velocity (and away from gravitational fields) can only be compared once, when they pass each other. After that comparison is theory (and convention) dependent, e.g., the speed of light postulate or the synchronization of clocks convention.
Obviously, as you said, the "twin paradox" do not suffer from this problem, because at least one observer is non-inertial.
SL: Your Aerospace Watchdog
Re: Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 28, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 30 weeks ago
Comment: 29431
Hi Christopher, sorry for the late reply - been away from computers (and relativity!) for a while.
Your diagrams are now correct, as far as I could establish and so is your conclusion:
I've said something similar on various occasions before: an inertial observer present at two events will always observe a shorter time interval between the two events than any inertial observer not present a both events. 'Observe' here obviously means compensating for light travel time.
In the twin's case, the traveling twin is the only one present at the turn-around event and hence will observe a smaller outbound time. One can ignore the "acceleration event" as insignificant and argue the same for the inbound trip.
This way I keep my sanity in relativity's "paradoxes"!
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
(Re:)^2 Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 28, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 30 weeks ago
Comment: 29432
Hi, Burt.
Thank you for this and for your invaluable help. The exercise of changing from a class of transform that allows changes scale (a causal transform) to a class of transform that preserves scale (a Lorentz transform) was very useful to me. The scale change doesn't matter for my argument, but keeping the scale constant is more customary. I learnt a bit having to do a Euclid-style straight-edge-and-compass construction for the Lorentz transform. It is to do with the geometry of the hyperbola, just a bit more complicated than the geometry of a circle.
You write:
"an inertial observer present at two events will always observe a shorter time interval between the two events than any inertial observer not present a both events. 'Observe' here obviously means compensating for light travel time.
"In the twin's case, the traveling twin is the only one present at the turn-around event and hence will observe a smaller outbound time."
These matters are obviously so familiar to you that what seems immediately obvious to you is far from obvious to me who is less familiar with them. Your two maxims here are so compressed into few words that your familiarity gives you an advantage. As I am reading the two above maxims of yours, they seem quite baffling. I am not saying they are not right, just that I have the impression that you find them obvious, while I don't. You seem to have access to some logic that isn't apparent to me. Can you expand a little on your two maxims, to show why they seem obvious to you, that is to say, reveal your logic that underpins them?
Christopher
Re: (Re:)^2 Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 28, 2008 by Halliday, 1 year 30 weeks ago
Comment: 29459
Christopher:
The statement
Can be seen as a restatement of "time dilation". The "tics" of a clock are events, and the clock is certainly present at each of these events. According to "time dilation" "moving" clocks (clocks that change position over time, as seen in a given [inertial] rest frame) "appear" to "run slower". So, an observer that is not present at the clock "tic" events will observe a longer time interval between the "tic" events than the clock that is present at each of these events (the "moving" clock).
Of course the stipulation of what "observe" means is a way of stating that we are talking about coordinate time of, or the time as measured by, the observer not moving with the clock. This can either be as Burt expresses it, by "compensating for light travel time" (presumably observing the events via light signals from the events and then back calculating the observer's time "simultaneous" to the event), or it can be via a collection of "research assistants" distributed through space with "synchronized" clocks. (The method for "compensating for light travel time" is directly related to the procedure for "synchronizing" the "research assistants". However, depending on how the observer obtains "distance" information the "compensating for light travel time" method may be considered to be more dependent on the spacetime theory involved than the "synchronized research assistants" method.*)
So I hope this helps you see the connection with what Burt is stating.
David
P.S. Once again I find something I don't like about the way blockquotes are handled with the new Science Blog formatting: It doesn't allow for non-emphasis text! (At least, it doesn't appear to allow for it using some form of the <em> tags.)
* General Relativity's use of general coordinates allows for any of a number of observational methods. The observational approach determines the numbers used, and hence the coordinates. The determination of the metric (and other tensors of spacetime) can then be used to determine "what happened" by helping one remap the coordinates. (Unfortunately, I doubt that many GR texts explicitly express this nature of general coordinates, though I think most of them have at least one paragraph in which they express how one may use an observation based system [such as telescopes trained on pulsars] to obtain coordinates that are not of the ordinary xyzt variety.)
(Re:)^3 Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 28, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 30 weeks ago
Comment: 29443
Hi Christopher, yep, I think I was a bit cryptic in that reply - sorry!
The underpinnings of "an inertial observer present at two events will always observe a shorter time interval between the two events than any inertial observer not present a both events" come from the Lorentz transform, but the simplest way to put is as follows.
The invariant spacetime interval is given by ds^2 = dt^2 - dx^2 for timelike intervals between two events. The observed (squared) time by any observer is hence: dt^2 = ds^2 + dx^2.
For an observer present at both events, dx = 0, so it is obvious that it gives the minimum value for dt (since ds is the same for all observers).
Hope this clears some of it, at least ;)
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
(Re:)^4 Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 29, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 30 weeks ago
Comment: 29472
Hi, Burt.
Thank you for this.
We are talking about two maxims that you proposed, and that I found baffling.
Let me speak of the local observer (the one who is inertial and present at both events) and the distant observer (the one who is inertial and present at neither event).
The first maxim is about comparing the time intervals between the two events, estimated respectively by the local observer and the distant observer.
Your new post translates your first maxim into the customary mathematical formulation in terms of inertial reference frames. That of course clarifies things, but is not necessarily what I was looking for. I was more directed towards the ordinary language mode of expression as it stood.
I think my bafflement is with the heavy burden carried by the word "observe".
I find it obvious that the local observer will have a simple task to report his findings: just log the two event readings on his own clock. No bafflement there, I think.
But for the distant observer, I am left wondering does observing mean his assembling the data supplied by his own remotely stationed research assistants with their synchronised clocks, that is to say reporting the time assessed in the reference frame of the distant observer; or, as in your post Twin paradox images (edited again), does it mean his using data from the local observer's remotely stationed synchronized clocks, that is to say reporting the time assessed in the reference frame of the local observer; or using calculations based on his own telescopic sightings and perhaps radar soundings to measure the speed of motion of the inertial observer's clock, and if so, whether his calculation will estimate times in terms of the reference system of the local or of the distant observer? Your comment "'Observe' obviously means compensating for light travel times" as I read it clarifies things to the extent that it excludes just measuring the time according to the the non-inertial observer's own clock between his telescopic sightings, and perhaps radar reflections, of the inertial observer's clock.
If the distant observer is merely distant from, but stationary with respect to, the local observer, he will measure the same times as the local observer, not less, I think, but this is a physical inference, not a logical identity; as a physical inference it might be questioned. Anyhow, this is a marginal case.
Your new post tells me about the first maxim; it tells me, I think, that you mean that the distant observer is estimating the time between the two events in his own reference frame, by one of the several methods available to him to get that quantity. That makes sense of it. Is that in fact what you mean? Only you know for certain what you mean.
What really had me puzzled was your second maxim "In the twin's case, the traveling twin is the only one present at the turn-around event and hence will observe a smaller outbound time." It seems to me that you somehow saw that as just obvious. But how? Your maxim uses the word "hence" as if to mean that knowing that the traveling twin is the only one present at the turn-around event makes it obvious that he will observe a shorter time interval.
Now I see what you had in mind here. You were using the first maxim. You reasoned that since the away-twin is inertial in the outbound leg, the set-out event and the turn-around event for him are two events such that he is present at both, and such that he is inertial in the interval between them, so that he qualifies as a local observer for the first maxim. Moreover, the home-twin is inertial but not present at both events, and so he qualifies as a distant observer for the first maxim. It follows from the first maxim that the away-twin's measurement of the time interval between the twp events is less than the interval that the home-twin will estimate in his reference frame. The logic here is that since the travelling twin is the only one present at the turn-around event, it follows that the home-twin is not present at both events; meanwhile, of course, the travelling twin is present at both; now it follows therefore that the first maxim applies. This is the hidden logic that I was asking for; no great mystery, but with my mind clouded by the puzzles of the meaning of the word observe, I did not notice it. I was wondering why being the only observer present at an event was so important in this situation; that wasn't exactly what was important, it turns out.
It seems I have tried to turn your neat aphorisms into a long-winded and tedious text. That isn't quite my aim! I am just looking for ways of making such neat aphorisms as clear as practicable to the newcomer. It takes a long-winded discussion to set out the problems of doing it neatly.
The purpose of my neutral observer demonstration is to show that there is some intuitive comon sense content to the longer time recorded by the home-clock: that intuitive content is that the neutral observer sees the home-clock continuing to travel and tick on its first leg long after the away-clock has finished its leg. This is not related to difference in clock rate, nor to difference in speed of movement; the neutral observer was constructed to ensure that. It is due to a longer leg to be run by the home-clock. This strikes me as intuitively reasonable according to common sense, while stories of clocks changing rates do not. Stories of changing clock rates and more especially of time-dilation require to some extent a suspension of common sense: that is why people find these things puzzling. I aimed to reduce that puzzlement.
Regards,
Christopher
Re:^5 to 'neutral observer'
April 29, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 30 weeks ago
Comment: 29491
Hi Christopher.
I think your analysis of what I tried to convey is spot-on. Your own 'crutch' of the neutral observer is also valid and if it helps you (and others) to cope with the complexities, it is valuable.
You wrote:
It may become a bit counter-intuitive at times, e.g., the clock onboard the low-Earth-orbit (LEO) satellite that records less time per orbit than Earth clocks, despite the fact that it operates in a gravitational environment where static clocks physically runs faster than Earth clocks.
Another one that is hard to visualize by means of a neutral observer is the muon lifetimes that get "stretched" enough so that a significant quantity reaches Earth's surface, despite their short half-life.
My "first maxim", as you called it, simply says that since each muon is present at the two events (its creation and it hitting Earth's surface) it observes a shorter time interval between the two events than what we do. We are not present at both events.
Obviously, we can only observe the half-life time of 'static' muons, confined to our vicinity, but it shows us that something happens to the time of the fast muons. A different history, as you said before...
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Causality
May 11, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 28 weeks ago
Comment: 29496
I have moved this comment to:
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/comments-about-logunov039s-relativistic-t...
Christopher
Re:^6 to 'neutral observer'
April 30, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 30 weeks ago
Comment: 29492
Hi, Burt.
Thank you for this.
The added complication of the effect of a gravitational field is indeed harder to understand. Your point is very interesting and important. I am still thinking about this one.
As for a neutral observer for the muons. With the vast profits generated by the licensing of my global warming engine, I have set up an orbiting lab that fires muons in the right direction and speed to do the job of the neutral observer. The lab runs muons in a stationary state to act as the home twin. I have to rely on a symmetry argument to pretend that the travelling muons virtually turn around for a return to base.
I think that the faster moving muons record less time on their way can perhaps be understood on the idea that they hardly interact with anything on the way, and so they have less experience per kilometer travelled. I have not yet read an autobiography of a muon, but I am guessing that it will back me up when it arrives. Muons in a chamber have a good chance to interact with the walls of the chamber, and this counts as experience for them. Light pulses are the extreme case, for they record no experience on the way. This is of course just a kind of Aesop's fable, a sort of allegory.
The definite facts in the life of a muon are its creation and its annihilation. (No taxes are yet levied on muons.) These two facts set up a particular reference frame, inertial between them, privileged for this problem. An distant observer inertial in a reference frame moving with respect to the travelling muon has to do quite a lot of data processing to work out what is happening to the local (travelling) muon. This processing takes time. So he observes the travelling muon to have a long life. I am not sure if this makes sense. I will think about it. This is getting towards a sort of interpretation of your first maxim, I think.
Regards,
Christopher
will understand
April 27, 2008 by Anonymous, 1 year 30 weeks ago
Comment: 29425
sg.hu/listazas.php3?id=1112296594
Are we taking things too far?
April 16, 2008 by Halliday, 1 year 32 weeks ago
Comment: 29085
SL (Scruffy):
In recognition and respect for the fact that this is your blog, I would like to respectfully ask whether Christopher and I are taking things too far afield here. If so, please let me know.
I've been thinking of starting a blog thread or two in my "blog space", but I just haven't taken the time to craft a good blog initialization post, as you have so often done so well.
However, if you consider our discussion to be of use, and you don't mind us using this space, then I'm OK with that as well.
I just don't want to usurp your space/thread/blog. I don't want to be a bad guest.
David
Re: Are we taking things too far?
April 16, 2008 by Scruffy, 1 year 32 weeks ago
Comment: 29086
Hi David, you asked: "I would like to respectfully ask whether Christopher and I are taking things too far afield here. If so, please let me know."
No problem here. I think the original question has run its course and is more or less settled, but I suppose anything relativistic is interesting to the typical readers of this blog.
I'm also a bit lazy in coming up with new Blog material, so feel free to keep the interest going!
SL: Your Aerospace Watchdog
Re: Twin paradox images
April 10, 2008 by Scruffy, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28746
Burt, that first diagram of yours "Away-twin reads home-twin's synchronized clocks" makes sort of sense. The home twin can surely set up a set of synchronized clocks for away twin to read as she passes them. I hope you don't mind me copying it here for ease of reference.
What bothers me is that the home twin could have set up a further 5 clocks, from 3 up to 6 ly away and the away twin could have read them as she flew past them, without needing a turnaround acceleration. According to your diagram, she would have still read 10 years on the last clock's face, while her own clock would have read 8 years.
Now my issue: why is this situation, without the turnaround acceleration, not reciprocal? After all, both could have been inertial for the whole leg, as Fred pointed out before.
Also, why is that confusing second diagram necessary if the first one explains it all?
SL: Your Aerospace Watchdog
Re2: Twin paradox images
April 10, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28748
Hi SL, you wrote:
"Now my issue: why is this situation, without the turnaround acceleration, not reciprocal? After all, both could have been inertial for the whole leg, as Fred pointed out before."
The situation is never reciprocal if you only view it from one inertial observer's perspective. For the scenario that you described (no turnaround), the away twin could also have set up a set of synchronized clocks in her frame and the home twin can read their time as he passes them.
Apart from the male-female difference, the situation would then have been completely reciprocal, with brother reading 10 years on sister's set of synchronized clocks, while his own clock only shows 8 years. Note however that the twins never meet again in your scenario, so the reciprocity is never resolved.
"Also, why is that confusing second diagram necessary if the first one explains it all?"
In the usual 'paradox', one twin has to turn around and if someone insists on analyzing the whole voyage from the away twin's frame of reference, you have no choice. She has two different inertial frames for outbound and inbound phases, as you well know...
What I've done is to force her two different inertial frames onto one standard spacetime diagram, causing that deplorable discontinuity in the world-line of the home twin's world-line. I could have prevented that discontinuity, but only at the expense of having two different sets of synchronized clocks for the away twin, causing other problems, e.g., how would brother know which set to read when?
What else is confusing?
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Re: Neutral observer of the twin clocks
April 10, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28739
Hi Christopher.
Glad you posted a spacetime diagram; makes it so much easier than reading walls of text. Like with you and my spacetime diagram, I also have a few issues with yours! I understand what you are attempting, so it's not a big issue.
Firstly, your green and red dotted lines of simultaneity have wrong angles when compared to the light cone, e.g., the red one has the same slope as the light cone. Not right! Anyway, since you are only showing a trend, this does not matter too much.
Secondly, you do realize that if the home clock reckons that the red away clock travels at twice the speed of the green 'neutral' clock
(as shown), the reference clock will observe the red and blue clocks traveling at unequal speeds in opposite directions? You have to use the relativistic subtraction of speeds to get the correct angles. This might matter a lot!
Lastly, for now, I would like to know what physical mechanism does the green neutral clock use to determine the clock readings of the the other two at the turnaround event. If it waits for light signals, those signals will arrive simultaneously, provided the situation is indeed symmetrical relative to the neutral observer. This is not quite what comes out of the diagram.
Because the home clock never accelerates, it has no defined turnaround event, just a time reading when the neutral clock detects the away clock's turnaround event by some means. This part of your scenario is not quite clear.
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Re: Re: Neutral observer of the twin clocks
April 10, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28767
Hi, Burt.
Thank you for this.
Oh, dear, is my diagram still glitchy? I will check it.
As for "what physical mechanism does the green neutral clock use to determine the clock readings of the the other two at the turnaround event. If it waits for light signals, those signals will arrive simultaneously, provided the situation is indeed symmetrical relative to the neutral observer."
My diagram intends to show the situation in terms of two reference systems, both for the outward leg, one for the home-clock (broken lines) and one for the neutral observer's clock (full lines). These are constructed after the event, and are not just direct records of raw local observations. A reference system is made of a set of virtual synchronised clocks remotely distributed throughout space, which observe locally respectively, then report their findings at leisure back to the main observer at the origin of the reference system. I think this is a standard story. The green clock can get this reference system information by calculations based on the light signals it observes through its telescope, but it can do this only after the events, only when it has all the data at hand. My diagram does not attempt to show explicitly the immediate raw local observations, but they can be deduced unequivocally from the diagram.
Time for me to take a break, and then check my diagram, as you seem to have found a mistake in it.
Regards,
Christopher
Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 23, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 31 weeks ago
Comment: 29177
Hi, Burt.
Last time I chose an unsuitable would-be “neutral observerâ€. I stipulated that he move so as to be halfway in spatial distance between the two test clocks; bad choice. Also my diagram had some glitches which you reported; thank you for that. Let me try again.
Let us look at a Minkowski diagram of the twin clocks scenario for the study of “Einstein’s time dilationâ€, drawn in the reference frame of the home-clock. The two clocks are identically constructed and simultaneously zeroed at home. The home-clock stays inertial. The away-clock moves out from the home event, O, and back again, travelling inertially at one and the same speed except at the turn-around event, T´, which in the reference frame of the home-clock is simultaneous with an event M´ at the home-clock. We compare the durations of time that these two test clocks register between their separation event, when the away-clock sets out, and their re-meeting event, when the away-clock arrives back. The scenario has two legs, outward and homeward. The total times can be found and compared by putting together the two leg times.

The outward-homeward symmetry about M´T´ means that we need look closely at just one leg, let it be the outward.
For the sake of a demonstration, we introduce a suitably chosen neutral observer. The neutral observer’s clock moves between the two test clocks, so that in his reference frame the two test clocks move at equal and opposite velocities, away from him in opposite senses; this is the desired demonstrative symmetry that makes the two test clocks run at equal rates and move at equal speeds.
In the next Minkowski diagram, the broken lines are world lines (dashed) and lines-of-simultaneity (dotted) for the home-clock (blue), the away-clock (red), and the neutral clock moving at equal and opposite velocities between them (green), plotted in the frame of reference of the home clock. The full lines are for the same, plotted in the frame of reference of the neutral clock. The diagram shows a transformation of reference frames that takes the broken lines into the full lines. Events labelled for the home-clock reference frame are primed, for example M´; for the neutral observer’s reference frame unprimed, for example M. The transformation takes the turning point T´ into T; it takes the "mid-time" event of the home-clock M´ into M; and it takes the "halftime" event of the outward leg of the home clock, H´, simultaneous with T´ as judged in the reference frame of the neutral observer, into H. c and -c mark the light cone of the origin O. x marks the distance and t the time axes.

In the reference frame of the home-clock: The turn-around events, M´ , P´ , and T´, though simultaneous, will occur not when the neutral observer is at half spatial distance between the two test clocks; but rather, when the neutral observer’s clock is spatially nearer to the away-clock than to the home-clock:
spatial distance M´P´ > spatial distance P´T´.
The two reference frames are related by a Lorentz transform. It requires that space be isotropic, that is to say, that if observer A moves inertially at velocity v with respect to observer B, then observer B must be travelling inertially at velocity –v with respect to observer A. The Lorentz transform preserves scale. Also it preserves collinearity. The events M, P and T are collinear in a line of simultaneity in the reference system of the neutral observer, because they are simultaneous for the home-clock’s reference system, at M´, P´, and T´.
The transformation diagram was drawn (with the aid of my textbook from schoolboy days) by elementary straightedge and compass methods known to Euclid, according to simple rules of Minkowski geometry. No numerical calculations here.
We will make our decisive comparison in the reference system of the neutral observer: The turn-around event T of the away-clock is simultaneous with an event H at the home clock that occurs before the turn-around event P of the neutral observer’s clock; T is also simultaneous with event L at the neutral observer’s clock; P in turn occurs before the midtime event M of the home-clock, which is simultaneous in this frame with event N at the neutral observer’s clock.
The comparison is made with respect to a single neutral reference clock. The two test clocks run at a common rate and travel in opposite respective directions at a common speed. Over one leg of the scenario, we just compare how far the test clocks travel and consequently how long they run for: it is obvious in the diagram that the home-clock moves a greater distance and takes a longer time to do so. In spatial distance measured in the neutral observer's reference system, the spatial excursion of the home-clock is greater than the spatial excursion of the away-clock:
spatial distance LT > spatial distance NM.
With the two test clocks' spatial excursions at equal speeds, the longer spatial excursion takes the longer time. The neutral reference clock registers that the extra time that the home-clock takes is from L to N.
The above argument is in terms of ‘simultaneity in a reference frame’. That is a rather theoretical argument in the sense that it supposes arrays of countless remotely stationed research assistants each with his own clock, all synchronised by the Einstein method. In many real situations, there are not so many actual research assistants, and the observer must be content to calculate what virtual research assistants would report, by use only of what he can see of the other clock faces with his telescope, and his own clock.
The above accounts for only the outward leg. It seems reasonable. We will rely on symmetry for the homeward leg.

The above argument does not try to say what immediate directly observed data, from his own clock and two oppositely directed telescopes, the neutral observer will record in his log book. Let us look at the latter, with the aid of the next Minkowski diagram, showing both legs in the reference frame of the home-clock. The neutral observer will record in his log the outset at O. Then, after a time, he will record his turn-around event P. Then, after a time of progress on his return leg, he will record seeing with his telescope the event H in the home-clock. Then, after a time, he will record seeing with his telescope the midtime event M of the home-clock. Then, after a time, he will record seeing in one of his two telescopes the turn-around event T of the away-clock, simultaneously with his seeing in his oppositely pointed telescope the homeward counterpart of the event H in the home-clock. Next on his log record will be his arrival at the final home meeting.
In contrast to the foregoing, as Burt has previously pointed out, when it is described in the time system of the neutral observer, the whole adventure will seem paradoxical or unintuitive, or one might even say apparently nonsensical. This is because the neutral observer’s reference frame has a jolt that for him is simultaneous with his turn-around event; at that event, his reference frame suffers an impulsive acceleration. His remotely stationed research assistants instantaneously move respective finite distances.
Let us see what this accelerated reference frame will report for the particular example scenario described in this diagram. The time axes of the two legs of the neutral observer’s reference frame are joined at the event P and its symmetrical partner. Some time after the outset of the travelling clocks from home, a second version of the home-clock appears from nowhere, and the home-clock begins to be present twice simultaneously moving at two different spatial places in the reference system of the neutral observer, one instance moving towards him, the other away from him. This is not at all physically mysterious or strange. It is simply that the reference system is an artefact, with artificial adventures due to the accelerated reference frame. Shortly after that duplicate appearance, the away-clock, at the event T simultaneous with the event L, disappears from this reference system, vanishing into nowhere. Again, this disappearance into nowhere is a mere artefact, not physically strange. Then, after some time, simultaneously with the turn-around event of the neutral observer, the two different records of the moving home-clocks cross each other instantaneously in the same event. The home-clock then continues to be simultaneously twice present moving at two different places in this reference system. After a time the away-clock reappears from nowhere in this reference system. Shortly after that, the home-clock that is moving away from the neutral observer disappears at event M into nowhere. Again these ‘events’ are just artefact. At a time after that reappearance, the three clocks meet in the final event of the scenario.
Accelerated reference frames do not preserve causality. The previous paragraph describes an example of an accelerated reference frame that, if mistakenly interpreted as physical, would seem to violate causality. The physicist knows from experience that it is the peculiarity of the accelerated reference frame that is the reason for the nonsensical appearance, and that nature does not violate causality. Real physical clocks do not appear from nowhere, nor do they disappear into nowhere, nor do they occur in two separate places simultaneously. That is why the physicist uses Minkowski spacetime and inertial reference frames, which preserve causality. Alfred Arthur Robb in 1913 showed the tight connection between causality and Minkowski spacetime by an argument based on causal ordering.
The foregoing demonstration is in terms of a fixed scale for the diagram, but this is not necessary. The Lorentz transformation is a Minkowski isometry, but any of a more general class of transformation of frames would have served the purpose of the demonstration. The scale of the transformed figure does not matter for the demonstration, and is therefore arbitrary for this purpose. Only the shape, defined by the angles, of the transformed figure matters; any similarity transform would do. All that matters for the present purpose is that the transformation preserve causality, that it be a member of the causality group, which is the Poincaré group composed with the group of dilations, (changes of scale, the same for every dimension). The Lorentz transform requires a little extra geometrical construction work, beyond what would be needed for a causality-preserving transform that does not preserve scale, less work to construct but still enough to demonstrate the point of concern here.
Now to the first part of the question at the head of this blog, “Is Einstein’s time dilation real?â€
Judged by the neutral observer, the two test clock rates are the same; their speeds of movement are the same; they are not accelerated during the outward leg. The difference in total time registered is therefore not due to difference in the test clocks’ rates, nor in their speeds, nor in their accelerations. It is because one is inertial and the other is not; they have different adventures. Since the home-clock’s adventures are all inertial at home, and the comparison is made at home, it registers most time there. Just by being there. The local eyewitness has the most experience of the locale. The famous imaginary rider on the light pulse has no experience anywhere, and his clock registers no time at all. That just confirms that he is only imaginary; no ponderable matter can be accelerated to light speed.
Here we see that the simple claim that clocks are slowed by travelling fast is sheer nonsense, neither true nor false, just physically and conceptually meaningless.
But it is true that identically constructed and identically working clocks can disagree on the time lapse between two events (at which respectively they are present to register together) if they have different adventures on the way between.
Strictly speaking, this violates Newton’s theory of absolute time, but in some respects reduces to it if the clocks’ adventures are only slightly different. Newton’s theory of time was flawed in its ignoring a finite speed of propagation of causal agency. The latter is needed for true causality, to provide for the distinction between action and reaction, Aristotle’s categories of agency and patience. Master of the methods of Euclid, and probably familiar with Aristotle’s categories, Archimedes had the tools for the “special†theory of relativity, but he missed it; so did Galileo and Newton. It waited perhaps unnecessarily for Larmor, Lorentz, Poincaré, Einstein, Minkowski, von Ignatowski, and Robb.
It is customary to say that it is velocity, not acceleration, that affects the speed of clocks, but this is misleading, unhelpful, or meaningless. Experiments that purport to prove it are done not on clocks, but on particles that have no zero setting facilities to be tested. Inertial reference frames allow arbitrary zero re-settings of clocks, while accelerated reference frames do not; this is a big difference. A clock that cannot be arbitrarily re-set to zero has serious drawbacks for practical purposes. The term ‘synchronisation’ means coordinated re-setting of zeros of several clocks. It usually does not refer to clock rates.
Time is not an event, nor a process, and so it cannot be caused, nor can it be a cause. It does not make sense to say that velocity or acceleration alter time, because such a statement seems to imply that time can be subject to, or patient of, causal agency. Time is in a sense part of the abstract theoretical receptacle that encompasses events and processes, which are causes and effects.
Regards,
Christopher
P.S. If the transform diagram does not display clearly on your browser, you may wish to download a .pdf file of it that will likely display clearly, from http://www.bellstheorem.com/docs/Lorentzonly1.pdf. The diagram of the transformation needs a clear display. Christopher
(Re:)^2 Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 24, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 31 weeks ago
Comment: 29231
David:
Thank you for this. It will help me to consider my reply if you will please post me as to just which paragraphs you refer to when you write of
"at least two paragraphs that are complete "throwaway" asides."
Christopher
Re: (Re:)^2 Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 25, 2008 by Halliday, 1 year 31 weeks ago
Comment: 29233
Christopher :
(EDITED: Unfortunately, when I wrote the following reply I had failed to notice that I had used complete in my reference to the quoted paragraphs. I then realized how the inclusion of this modifier in my characterization of "complete 'throwaway' asides" can be interpreted in a negative way that really goes well beyond my intent. I'm ever so sorry. :-{ Please forgive my over characterization of the asides.
Also, Christopher, in your reply to my other post, please hold most of your reply that pertains to these asides for a reply to this post, so we can try to keep separate issues separate. Unless, of course, you really don't see them as separate at all. :-) )
I would say that to at least some extent all four of the following paragraphs are part of a "throwaway" aside. That is not to say that they don't have anything to say. However, they are, to at least some degree, orthogonal to your primary arguments and points. (I did, to only a very slight degree, refer to part of the first of these paragraphs. However, it was a point already made in prior posts.)
Let us see what this accelerated reference frame will report for the particular example scenario described in this diagram. The time axes of the two legs of the neutral observer’s reference frame are joined at the event P and its symmetrical partner. Some time after the outset of the travelling clocks from home, a second version of the home-clock appears from nowhere, and the home-clock begins to be present twice simultaneously moving at two different spatial places in the reference system of the neutral observer, one instance moving towards him, the other away from him. This is not at all physically mysterious or strange. It is simply that the reference system is an artefact, with artificial adventures due to the accelerated reference frame. Shortly after that duplicate appearance, the away-clock, at the event T simultaneous with the event L, disappears from this reference system, vanishing into nowhere. Again, this disappearance into nowhere is a mere artefact, not physically strange. Then, after some time, simultaneously with the turn-around event of the neutral observer, the two different records of the moving home-clocks cross each other instantaneously in the same event. The home-clock then continues to be simultaneously twice present moving at two different places in this reference system. After a time the away-clock reappears from nowhere in this reference system. Shortly after that, the home-clock that is moving away from the neutral observer disappears at event M into nowhere. Again these ‘events’ are just artefact. At a time after that reappearance, the three clocks meet in the final event of the scenario.
Accelerated reference frames do not preserve causality. The previous paragraph describes an example of an accelerated reference frame that, if mistakenly interpreted as physical, would seem to violate causality. The physicist knows from experience that it is the peculiarity of the accelerated reference frame that is the reason for the nonsensical appearance, and that nature does not violate causality. Real physical clocks do not appear from nowhere, nor do they disappear into nowhere, nor do they occur in two separate places simultaneously. That is why the physicist uses Minkowski spacetime and inertial reference frames, which preserve causality. Alfred Arthur Robb in 1913 showed the tight connection between causality and Minkowski spacetime by an argument based on causal ordering.
The foregoing demonstration is in terms of a fixed scale for the diagram, but this is not necessary. The Lorentz transformation is a Minkowski isometry, but any of a more general class of transformation of frames would have served the purpose of the demonstration. The scale of the transformed figure does not matter for the demonstration, and is therefore arbitrary for this purpose. Only the shape, defined by the angles, of the transformed figure matters; any similarity transform would do. All that matters for the present purpose is that the transformation preserve causality, that it be a member of the causality group, which is the Poincaré group composed with the group of dilations, (changes of scale, the same for every dimension). The Lorentz transform requires a little extra geometrical construction work, beyond what would be needed for a causality-preserving transform that does not preserve scale, less work to construct but still enough to demonstrate the point of concern here.
The fact is that the first two or three paragraphs would probably have had a greater impact as a separate post, possible in reference to someone else's post.
I can see where you were caught up in your causality comments (particularly from the third paragraph) and so brought in the additional aside of the fourth paragraph.
Of course I'm certainly not immune to such diversions myself. So it was perhaps quite unfair for me to even mention such. For that, I'm sorry. :-{
However, when I do succumb to such diversions within a single post* I usually try to move them down to a footnote or a "P.S." But I'm sure there are times you may be able to point to where I had somewhat similar "throwaway" asides within some of my longer posts. (These small editing boxes can make it difficult to see when such is happening. I do, however, try to preview what I have written several times, and even edit a number of times after posting, unless I'm heavily constrained by time.)
David
* I usually try to put such diversions/asides in separate posts, at least if they appear to be getting too large.
(Re:)^4 Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 25, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 31 weeks ago
Comment: 29237
David:
Thank you for this clarification of which paragraphs you were referring to.
Christopher
Re: Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 24, 2008 by Halliday, 1 year 31 weeks ago
Comment: 29229
Christopher:
It appears to me that you multiply many words but say little. (You have at least two paragraphs that are complete "throwaway" asides.)
Your graphic constructs are just fine. However, your conclusions (presuming that the embolden sentences are conclusions, as they read to be, along with your last one or two paragraphs) leave much to be desired.
First, you conclude, based upon the "neutral" observer's outward going reference frame
If this were the case, then why do the two "away" clocks not match when they return to "home"? Both are non-inertial, neither has a "home" like "adventure".
This concept of different "adventures", in and of itself, provides no ability to compare clocks, or anything else, between different "adventures" (the terminology of choice is spacetime paths, by the way). An additional structure/construct/characteristic is required for such.
By your reckoning one could say that the reason one side of a triangle is always shorter than the sum of the other two sides is because the other two sides have "different adventures". Yet the comparisons available for Spacial Relativity (SR) are quite comparable to those of Euclidean Geometry: The only difference is in the nature/character (signature) of the metric (Euclidean vs. Minkowskian). In my mind, at least, there can be nothing simpler. No metaphysical waffling about "different adventures", or changes in simultaneity (especially resynchronization of clocks or "remotely stationed research assistants instantaneously move[ing]" in space or time [I know this isn't your doing, Christopher, it's a problem with those that insist upon seeing everything via inertial reference frames without thinking deeply about what that would mean physically]). Just nice local measurements, and an accumulation thereof (anything with a memory, like clocks).
On the matter of so called "time dilation"
In a sense, you are correct (and a somewhat similar thing can be said of so called "length contraction"). In the sense of the metric nature of spacetime, in analogy with the metric nature of Euclidean space, the characteristics of different speeds ("boosts", in terms of the Lorentz transformations) are analogous to characteristics of different rotations in Euclidean space. So nothing has actually changed, in the sense of the things themselves relative to themselves, only their "appearances" or their "projections" back into the "original" (or some other) coordinate system.
This doesn't, however, make the "rotation" (boost, in the Minkowski case) any less "real", or the changes in "appearance" any less "real", since they do have real, measurable consequences. It just means that there is a perspective (in terms of how one thinks about what one is observing) available that renders such issues as "time dilation" and "space contraction" in such a form that it's more analogous with "appearance", in a non-the-less measurable way (just as the "height" of a square changes when one rotates it in Euclidean space).
It's a mater of perspective. (Sorry for the double entendre, but I felt that it fit.)
This, of course, has bearing on your next "conclusion"
Or, rather, they "can disagree on the time lapse between two events (at which respectively they are present to register together) if they" take different paths through spacetime. The metric nature of spacetime, just as with Euclidean space, means that different paths may have different path lengths. In Minkowski spacetime, due to the expectation of the orientation of any observer's own time axis (namely along one's own path in spacetime), this path length is proportional to the "proper" time accumulated along the path. (Since the proportionality is constant, for the most "perfect" of clocks [meaning that they are as insensitive as theoretically possible to changes in motion, accelerations, etc.], a suitable scaling can be defined such that they are identical.)
Unfortunately, your paragraph pertaining to "velocity" vs. "acceleration" "affecting" (or not) "the speed of clocks" is flawed. This is primarily due to your reliance on some fictitious need for "zero re-settings of clocks". After all, any clock can always be effectively re-set to whatever time (including zero) one may desire at any time—even particle "clocks". (If nothing else, it can always be accomplished via the logging system.) In fact, another rather interesting feature of particle "clocks" (meaning the "clock" that is related to particle decay) is that they are always continually being re-set to zero. The particle decay rate/probability does not depend on how long the particle has been in existence. The particle has no memory, its "clock" has no memory.
Of course you are correct that "The term ‘synchronisation’[sic] means coordinated re-setting of zeros of several clocks." And, yes, "It usually does not refer to clock rates." However, as I have tried to point out in prior posts (and alluded to above), such "synchronization" is not all that helpful in so many instances, especially in the case of non-inertial "reference frames". (Actually, I consider the term "non-inertial reference frame" to be an oxymoron. But to each his own.)
As per your last paragraph/conclusion
You are correct that time, itself, is not an event, anymore than position is. Of course the "time measured on a clock as it passed a certain position" is an event. Also, all the times expressed by a given clock are events (a sequence of such).
Any single even has a label/tag (or ordered tuple of such) associated with it, within any given observer's system of reckoning (we usually codify this as a coordinate system, and in SR, for inertial observers, we have a prescription for choosing a particular coordinatization). However, the labels/tags, or the individual parts of any such labeling/tagging system (such as the individual slots of tuples), are not, in themselves, events.
However, when one talks of "time" being "altered" by motion (speed, acceleration, whatever) one can still be correct if one is referring to how such may "alter"/"affect" some "natural" choice of "time coordinate". On the other hand, if one is referring to events, one should be more careful in one's choice of terms, and refer to the "passage of time as measured by .." or some such. I agree that we shouldn't refer to time as some thing that exists unto itself. We have labels (or, rather, parts thereof) that we may call "time", and we have devices/things that can be used to log/"mark" "time", or the passage thereof, but there isn't some independent "entity" as "time". (Such terminology stems from a "common language usage" like issue. It stems from our "common" perception of the passage of personal time that we have a tendency to universalize. [We have to retrain ourselves not to think in such terms, just as we had to retrain ourselves to recognize that the people around us do not share our thoughts.])
So, in conclusion, you're not too far off in most things. There's just a few areas that could use some clarification or the addition of alternate perspectives (in the "ways of thinking" sense). The worst trouble that I saw, however, involved your reliance upon some concept of "arbitrary zero re-settings of clocks" and a false perception that such is impossible for "particles" in order to argue that statements to the effect "that it is velocity, not acceleration, that affects the speed of clocks" is "meaningless". I'm sorry, such doesn't hold together. (However, an argument can be made that the theoretically best possible clocks are unaffected by both velocity and acceleration, including gravitation. But this is within a particular perspective [think proper time vs. path length].)
David
P.S. You cannot make any "decisive comparison" in the "reference system of the neutral observer" any more than you can make any "decisive comparison" in any other reference system. (Even if we disregard the fact that the "reference system of the neutral observer" is only inertial for part of the total problem.)
Re: Re: Neutral observer of the two clocks: a second try
April 30, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 30 weeks ago
Comment: 29497
David:
Thank you for your extensive reply to my post about the twin clock scenario.
I was trying to create a fresh way of grasping the twin clock scenario, of getting an intuitive common sense take on “Einstein’s time dilationâ€, a fresh angle on its “realityâ€.
When I had done that, I saw that the twin clock scenario holds unexpected lessons that I had not originally seen in it, and I tried to indicate what they are. In a nutshell, the twin clock scenario has the core of the reason why the theory of gravity must be built on Minkowski geometry.
I chose to use Minkowski diagrams for the demonstration of the twin clock scenario.
I first offered a list of candidate intuitively simple explanations of the difference in duration registered in the twin clock scenario, in terms of clock rate, clock acceleration, and clock speed, and I invented a neutral observer for whom differences in these were all null and therefore not explanatory of difference.
I rely on the principle that an intuitively reasonable explanation should work for all observers, and I produce an observer who finds that none of the above three simple explanations work. By suggesting a higher dimensional picture than my two-dimensional Minkowski diagram, Burt’s comment brings it to our attention that there are countless other observers for whom they don’t work. Therefore none of the simple three, at least alone, is an intuitively reasonable explanation. This is an intuitive motive for looking for more subtle candidates, still with a common sense or intuitive slant.
My candidate explanation goes like this:
The rate of a clock, the speed of movement, and the acceleration are all differential conditions. They are rates. Besides intensive variables, densities, conveniently represented by tensors, physics is about extensive variables, global quantities. A physical explanation needs an integration of differential conditions, to produce definite results. We want some kind of definite integral.
There are various ways of integrating given differential conditions. One can do a line integral, or an area or volume integral, the result being a number. Or one can find a curve, for example an integral curve of a field of vector rates. There are various ways of setting definitive conditions for that. One can say that the curve must pass through certain points on the boundary or in the interior of the field, or that it must have derivatives with certain values in specified places. Or one might produce a surface as the result of the integration. And so on.
I chose the non-technical word adventure to try to suggest the general intuitive meaning of this variety of ways of setting the definitive conditions for integrating.
Of course it will need to be made precise for each scenario. For example, your choice of established terminology, “spacetime pathsâ€, sometimes also called world lines when they are pervaded by an enduring particle. The mathematically fitting notion of spacetime paths provides an elegant and apt explanation in abstracto, but is bloodless, wanting allusion, not enough for a feeling of intuitive understanding. And I am still working here at a more general intuitive level; that is why I chose to speak of adventure.
Your reply contains the maxim:
“Just nice local measurements, and an accumulation thereof (anything with a memory, like clocks).â€
This maxim is in agreement with the local aspects of adventures, but it also suggests a celebrated line of thinking, a line that is often taken to lead to the “general theory of relativityâ€.
Speeds and accelerations and relative clock rates are local, differential, notions. The maxim leaves open the method of accumulation.
The “general theory of relativity†is a statement of local, differential, conditions, with no free parameters, as you have noted, a fact most admirable and illustrious, even egregium. But it leaves open the method of accumulation, in its particular case, the boundary conditions. This is where it is ambiguous. For the setting of boundary conditions, the use of the “general theory of relativity†requires some theoretical supplementation, and, to be valid in practice, that needs a global Minkowski geometry.
The “general theory of relativity†thinks differentially, in terms of countless local tangent spaces each with its own private Minkowski geometry, its own nice local measurements, but it doesn’t think of putting them together into a single global geometry. So it neglects causality, which requires a global Minkowski geometry, as proved by Robb in 1913.
The twin clocks scenario, unexpectedly to me, turned out to contain the bones of Robb’s discovery, which is sometimes nowadays called the Alexandrov-Zeeman theorem.
In using an accelerated reference frame for the twin clocks scenario, one finds flagrant violations of causality. One finds clocks disappearing into nowhere, appearing from nowhere, and appearing in duplicate at different places at the same time. Indeed, no matter how small the non-zero relative speed of the away-clock, there will be such violations of causality in the accelerated frame.
Violations of causality are physical nonsense. The “general theory of relativity†just carries on as if this didn’t matter, and allows accelerated frames without a fuss. Consequently, it needs to get its boundary conditions from an external source, being alone in itself ambiguous about them.
“… all must be invariant to general coordinate transformations…†This statement expresses an admirable and important concept. For the orthodoxy it has been mesmeric. It is a very general statement, and I think it needs some provisoes.
It is also an admirably true and important statement that “the phenomena of nature care absolutely nothing for what coordinates we may assign to the points of space and time.†This is a valuable and powerful principle of physical explanation. I have used just that principle above for the twin clock scenario. For the orthodoxy I also has been mesmeric.
Neither of these important principles, however, is a law of nature. They are just methodological guidelines, advice about how to write laws of nature. It might also be said that nature doesn’t even care if we don’t use any coordinate system at all, or that nature doesn’t care if we don’t study physics. Half echoing a famous man: For a valid empirical science, laws of nature must take precedence over aesthetics of formalism.
The second statement as it stands is about so-called admissible coordinate systems, that is to say, coordinate systems of spacetime that respect the difference between space and time (but perhaps it was, or perhaps it was not, intended to be more general, and to refer also to coordinate systems that mix up space and time coordinates). It does not state that that just any old arbitrary system of equations, that accurately describe the phenomena of nature, reveals the laws of nature, that is to say, is form-invariant under transformation of spacetime coordinates. The accurate description might have been a lucky accident that does not reveal what we might think of as laws of nature such as we like to see. It took Einstein and Hilbert’s special skills and genius to find a very special just-right system of dynamical equations for gravity that would bring about form-invariance under transformation of spacetime coordinates. Form-invariance does reveal laws of nature. We want our dynamical equations to reveal laws of nature.
While nature does not care what coordinate system we use, nature does care very much not to violate causality, and this is a law of nature. It is a real physical principle, not just a methodological guideline. Methodological guidelines can be validly sidestepped in favour of other valid methodological guidelines. But laws of nature cannot be sidestepped.
Again, while nature does not care what coordinate system we use, we care very much that we can physically empirically verify our statements about nature. This is not a mere methodological guideline: it is an absolute mandate of empirical science. We need coordinate systems that we can use empirically.
These two concerns, causality and empirical verifiability, constrain our choices of coordinate systems. We should distinguish between reference frames and coordinate systems. We may allow a coordinate system that seems to show violations of causality provided that coordinate system has a transformation into another that does not. We will distinguish coordinate systems, that do not violate causality, and can be empirically measured, as reference frames, and use them as bases to generate more general coordinate systems. We may solve a particular problem in terms of an aptly chosen general coordinate system, but we will need the reference frame to guide us out of perplexities of causality violation. Also we will need our reference frame to be physically empirically verifiable, abbreviated by the term admissible. We can physically empirically verify things in a coordinate system only if it respects the difference between time and space. That is to say, it must respect the difference between clocks and measuring rods, for those are our facilities for physical empirical verification. Only a restricted class of coordinate systems for spacetime provide for those facilities.
The following paragraph is very closely based on pages 17-18 of Anatoly Logunov’s Lectures in Relativity and Gravitation: A Modern Look, translated from the Russian by Alexander Repyev, Nauka and Pergamon, first English edition, 1990; some sentences are word-for-word.
The “general theory of relativity†is importantly driven by the fact that the quantities that determine gravity are densities that can be expressed as tensors with respect to spacetime. Consequently we have access to a methodological notion of covariance: “An equation [relating unknown functions of the spacetime coordinates] is said to be covariant [under some arbitrary differentiable transformation of the spacetime coordinate system just when] its new unknown functions expressed in terms of the new [spacetime coordinates] satisfy equations of the same form as the old functions in terms of [the] old [spacetime coordinates].†This notion of covariance is a mighty help in the work of finding a just-right system of equations. But it doesn’t do the whole job; more is needed to achieve form-invariance of dynamical equations. “Form invariance for a metric under some transformation [(…)] is a more stringent requirement than the covariance of equations. This requirement is a constraint on the class of frames of reference: they must be such that when transformed into another the functional form of the metric tensor of spacetime would remain unchanged.â€
Putting together these constraints on our coordinate systems and reference frames, we will find that Minkowski geometry is irremovably built into any correct and acceptable system of differential equations for the dynamics of gravity. This is denied by the orthodoxy of the “general theory of relativityâ€, which thereby invalidates itself. It is respected by the Logunov relativistic theory of gravity.
From a more directly empirical viewpoint, one would ask about the above-mentioned maxim about nice local measurements, do the neutral observer’s sightings through his telescope come within the definition of nice local measurements? Are astronomical observations nice local measurements? If not, would the maxim bar them? Why?
I would like to revise the last paragraph of my post that your reply refers to. “Time is not an event, nor a process, and so it cannot be caused, nor can it be a cause. It does not make sense to say that velocity or acceleration affect time, because such a statement seems to imply that time can be subject to, or patient of, causal agency. Time is in a sense part of the abstract theoretical receptacle that encompasses events and processes, which are causes and effects.â€
Moving on from Newton’s theory of time as independent of space, we take up Minkowski geometry. For physics, we demote time from a principal fundamental notion, a notion that together with space defines the eternal absolute Newtonian-Platonic receptacle; we demote time to an abstraction that measures concrete adventures. The eternal absolute receptacle is no longer a primary abstraction for us.
What now for physics is conceptually primary and absolute in its place?
Causality, the causal structure of adventures, of causes and effects, of processes, and, abstractly, of point-events, is the most fundamental concept and the most general law of nature.
It is from causality that we construct the notion of spacetime. We find from causality that if we want a geometry for spacetime, it must be the Minkowski geometry. I have some comments on this in another post http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/einsteins-time-dilation-and-length-contra.... Once we have Minkowski geometry we are in a position to set up arbitrary coordinate systems and consider arbitrary coordinate transforms, according to desirable methodological guidelines, and respecting the laws of nature. This gives us a valid basis for a relativistic theory of gravity, with a geometrisation that sees test particles moving along geodesics and so forth.
The orthodoxy of the “general theory of relativity†proposes to take Minkowski geometry into account just as an afterthought, apparently plucked out of nowhere, not as a foundation because it is the most fundamental law of nature. The orthodoxy of the “general theory of relativity†says “Oh, we can take Minkowski geometry adequately into account by making all relevant tangent spaces have it, and tying them together by using a scale factor that makes the speed of light in a vacuum the same for them all.†But this is too late in the development, and it doesn’t provide the foundation of causality. Just the scale factor is not enough to put them all together into one underlying Minkowski geometry, such as is required by the fundamental law of nature that we call causality.
The ‘equivalence’ story of Feynman and Weinberg is not correct. They get a relativistic theory with general coordinate freedoms from a foundation of Minkowski geometry, but they do not show the converse, getting global Minkowski geometry from an orthodox “general theory of relativityâ€.
Einstein’s lofty, epochal, original, and brilliant insights into gravity can make physical sense only in the setting of an overall Minkowski geometry. His “special theory of relativity†is an expression of Minkowski geometry, which expresses all the relativity theory that is needed for the study of gravity, and indeed all the relativity theory that there is. Properly speaking, there is no “general theory of relativityâ€. Whitehead drew Einstein’s attention to this long ago, but Einstein rejected it, and the orthodoxy has followed Einstein. The proposal that Minkowski geometry drops out of the operative differential equations of gravity is mistaken. To come to terms with all this, perhaps a good start may be to read Logunov’s Lectures, cited above.
Christopher
Re(N): Neutral observer of the two clocks
May 3, 2008 by Scruffy, 1 year 30 weeks ago
Comment: 29594
Christopher, while your discussions with David and Burt are very interesting, I think the length of your posts are starting to kill this old thread!
Maybe we must consider opening a new thread for continuing this discussion. If you do not want to, tell me and I'll dream up a suitable title and start one.
SL: Your Aerospace Watchdog
Re(N+1): Neutral observer of the two clocks
May 5, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 29 weeks ago
Comment: 29627
Scruffy, SL,
Thank you for this.
Yes, I will take elsewhere
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/comments-about-logunov039s-relativistic-t...
any further comments I might have about the "general theory of relativity".
I am sorry I have overloaded your blog with my long comment on the "general theory of relativity".
I started to make posts to this your blog with a direct focus on your question of the "reality" or otherwise of Einstein's time dilation and length contraction, using the current vehicle of the two-clocks scenario, with my neutral observer demonstration for it. I noted unexpectedly that this simple example pointed to thoughts about the "general theory of relativity", and thought it would be ok to point how this was.
I am still hatching thoughts closely focused on your original question of the "reality" or otherwise of Einstein's time dilation and length contraction. If eventually those thoughts come out briefly, and if you reply to this post that you would like me to do so, then I will post them here when they are ready.
Christopher
Hi Christopher. To clarify
April 11, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28775
Hi Christopher. To clarify what I meant by my statement about relativistic subtraction, if the speed of your green clock is 0.4c and the coordinate speed of the your red clock is 0.8c (as it appears to be on the diagram), then the relative speed between the red and green clock is v_rg = (v_r - v_g)/(1 - v_r v_g) = 0.588c.
So, I do not think the projections that you made are correct. You cannot just rotate the worldlines around the origin by the same angle. The transformed red worldline is at the wrong angle.
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
PS: Oops! I replied directly to your post and probably blocked you from editing it. The problem with the new look Blog is that it is frustrating to work at the very bottom of the long web page and losing sight of the thing you are replying to...
Re: Hi Christopher. To clarify
April 11, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28782
Hi, Burt.
Thank you for this.
Yes, you are right, my diagram has glitches. It's good that you spotted them. I was so pleased with the method that I was over-hasty in finishing the diagram, over-hastily deleting good lines lines and leaving in unwanted construction lines. As a result there are several wrong details in the diagram. I am sorry for this.
I will put up a corrected diagram some time soon. Luckily the glitches that you have picked up, are, as you note, not destructive of the thread of the argument.
As to the angles of the world lines. I did not place them by angle. I placed the dashed lines by putting the green clock half way between the red and the blue clock. I used equal distances, not equal angles, for this. I did not measure the distances numerically, but just made them equal by geometrical construction. The lines of simultaneity, when drawn correctly, are diagonals of parallelograms constructed of light rays.
I am not yet sure about exactly what is the proper classification of the Minkowski geometry transform that takes T into T'. Perhaps it involves a scale change as well as a change of reference frame. I will have to think about this. But I think that, whatever it is, it also takes M into M' and H into H', preserving the relations that matter for our problem. I will have to improve my understanding of the permitted transforms of Minkowski geometry to sort this out. Something about the Poincaré group? There are many other ways of choosing a transform that will also serve the purpose of showing what I want to show in this problem. While perhaps some other choice would have been better, the one I chose seemed to have fewest lines in the diagram because some overlap.
What I want to show is that when the two test clock rates are equal, the process measured at home takes more time for the home-clock than for the away-clock.
I think the physical meaning of this is that the overall time is reckoned at the location of the blue clock in its uninterrupted inertial time system, and this is maximum because the blue clock has most experience of what happens at the reckoning place. The blue clock has privileged access to home. Other clocks have more experience elsewhere, but less at home than the home clock.
This is an explanation that I do not recall having read before, and I think I can safely say it is conceptually unfamiliar. But I think it has some intuitive sense, and this may perhaps ripen with familiarity. I am saying something along the lines of "time is a measure of experience where it is measured".
I am not sure whether this will turn out to have some explanatory value for general use. It is intended as a way of finding some intuitive feeling for the meaning of Minkowski geometry. So far I do not know of any standard expressions of such meaning. I am trying to reduce the feeling of bafflement that comes with Minkowski geometry, for those of us who have mostly dealt with things moving only far more slowly than light, and for whom Euclidean geometry seems intuitively natural. On the other hand, perhaps this explanation is nonsense! I will have to think about it.
Regards,
Christopher
Clock paradox and Christopher's neutral observer
April 9, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28728
Hi Cristopher, you wrote some time ago (I was too busy to read that long post in detail so far up to now):
"The natural way to look at the clock paradox, which is, I think, the real focus of the present discussion, is to compare instantaneous clock rates for two clocks, and to compare measurements of a certain prescribed finite duration by the two clocks.
One scientific way of doing a comparison is to set up a neutral observer who observes both test clocks. The neutral observer will move so as to stay halfway between the two paradoxical clocks, and so will be present at the start and end points of the comparison of durations."
Apart from the comments that David has made and your changes, I have just one immediate comment: The introduction of an accelerating "neutral observer" complicates the issue further without adding much in terms of clarity (there are now many more inertial frames to consider 'simultaneously' and we all know the issues there. Your plan made me think of another possible scientific way of doing a comparison.
Why not set up a neutral inertial observer at some distance along the other space dimension, perpendicular to the line between start and turnaround point? If both twins send time stamped EM signals regularly during the test, the neutral observer can eventually make out "what's going on below", so to speak.
One thing that it will do is to kill the pesky reciprocity that is at the heart of the clock paradox. Thoughts?
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Burt's comment on the neutral observer of the twin clocks
April 9, 2008 by Christopher Joh..., 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28731
Hi, Burt.
Thank you for this.
Yes, as you note, my previous verbal presentation had a few glitches, as it was done in my head, without the precaution of carefully drawing a diagram. I hope the diagram I have just posted is right now?
Yes, in general it may be that a neutral observer might have some problems. In general, he couldn't be neutral with respect to three clocks, for example.
In this simple case, with only two clocks and a handy symmetry, I think he does have some clarification to contribute.
Yes, a neutral observer symmetrically placed in another space dimension would also be helpful, as you say. I do not have facility at drawing three dimensional perspective diagrams.
Regards,
Christopher
Re: further urgent message [to Burt] (Edited)
April 9, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28682
Hi Christopher.
I've gave it another try to bring the message of my second diagram over in words. Please see if it now makes more sense (but do read it with the diagram...)
I'm not inclined towards withdrawing the post or to keep on modifying it. I think further clarification can be via questions, comments and so on.
Before I tend to your other remarks, please let me know if the meaning of the diagram is now clearer.
[Edit] to avoid misunderstanding: the dotted horizontal arrows in the first figure are the projection of a the event when the 'moving observer' passes a specific reference frame clock onto the reference frame. That is always horizontal in Minkowski spacetime diagrams. It is only sloped if you project events onto the 'moving frame'.
[Edit2]: I noticed that the "dotted right arrows" in the second diagram did not show as "dotted", probably adding to the confusion. I changed the format of the arrows and hope it shows clearly now. Those arrows are projecting the time that the home twin reads directly the synchronized clocks of the away twin as he passes them.
Hope it solves some misunderstanding.
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Twin paradox images (edited again)
April 9, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28653
Hi Fred et. al.
Here's the spacetime diagrams and discussion on the 'twin paradox' that I promised.
1. Away-twin reads home-twin's synchronized clocks.
The home twin set out 5 synchronized clocks, 0.6 ly apart to cover the 3 ly to the turnaround point. The relative speed is 0.8c. Dotted lines and left arrows indicate when the away-twin passes these clocks and reads them directly.
The bullets indicate yearly intervals on each twin's world line (by their own clocks). The away-twin reads the home frame's proper time to increase by one year for every clock she passes, while her own proper time increases by 0.8 ly in the same time intervals. This continues for the whole trip, making the away twin 8 years older and her twin brother 10 years older at the end.
2. Home-twin reads away-twin's synchronized clocks.
This diagram has been drawn strictly from the away twin's frame of reference. Because she has to be in at least two inertial frames, the diagram is quite messy. While her onboard time increases smoothly from 0 to 4 years at the abrupt turnaround and then from 4 to 8 years before she reaches home, the home twin observes quite a different picture.
[Edit: I'm editing the next paragraphs for the second time in an attempt to make it more understandable (and a lot longer, I'm afraid!)
The away-twin has set up a single set of synchronized clocks, with local personnel that can adjust these clocks as planned. The home twin observes these clocks flying past and can read the time of each clock as it passes. After 5 years on his own clock, the home twin has already seen the clock showing 6 years flying past and he calculates that the away-twin's clock now read 6.25 year, as shown by the top dotted right-arrow on the diagram.
Not quite to his surprise, the next clock that flies past reads only 2 years - he knows that the away twin will turn around after 5 years of home time and also knows that she would have resynchronized her clocks. In fact, her staff at each clock knows to set it backwards by a specific amount, defined by their distance from the away twin and her return speed. This is the lower dotted right-arrow, drawn at 1.75 years of coordinate time (the away twin's coordinates).
The home twin then finds the away twin's synchronized clocks that fly past him to again run faster than his own clock, adding another 6.25 years to the coordinate time, reaching 8 years as the twins get together again. The home twin's clock shows 10 years at that time. All time readings mentioned here are as physically read by one of the two twins as they pass the other's synchronized clocks. [End edit]
The significance of this treatment is that it dispels that bizarre notion that one of the twins 'suddenly jumps' in age. Their ages are clearly increasing at different, but steady rates, while synchronized clocks can have sudden offsets added when acceleration comes into play.
To me it is absurd to argue that from the away-twins point of view, the home twin must age slower during her outbound leg and then his age is suddenly increased at the turnaround point, so that while he again ages slower during the inbound leg, he ends up older than the away-twin. Such an effect is never directly observable, while the effects that I've given above are (and are more 'real' because they are measurable, I like to think).
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Interpreting Burt's diagrams
April 10, 2008 by Fred Bortz, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28747
Hi, Burt.
Because of other work, I can't keep up with this thread or read all the details of the discussion, so forgive me if I misinterpret what your clear diagrams are showing.
I think we are disagreeing only about the philosophy rather than what is measured. We have different ways of answering Scruffy's original question about what is "real."
I prefer the discontinuity that you don't like. I don't give my away twin a staff to reset the clocks. When she changes her frame of reference, she knows to use her new frame of reference's array of clocks.
Another possible difference of interpretation is when you write: "Not quite to his surprise, the next clock that flies past reads only 2 years - he knows that the away twin will turn around after 5 years of home time and also knows that she would have resynchronized her clocks." If he hasn't yet detected her turn around, he will be judging her age by the clocks in her original frame of reference. (I may have missed something in my skim reading, but that's what I picked up.) Otherwise, he is relying on a promise that she might not be able to keep (because her rockets might not work).
In short, we have no disagreement on the physics. Each of us is more comfortable with a different way of understanding the phenomena. We have different intellectual frames of reference, so to speak, but we agree on the underlying physics and the on the resulting measurements.
Some readers are probably more attuned to my intellectual frame, and others are more attuned to yours. We can hope that offering more than one way of looking at this deepens everyone's understanding. I would draw an analogy to the way binocular vision helps us to perceive a three dimensional world using two two-dimensional retinas.
Fred Bortz -- Science and technology books for young readers (www.fredbortz.com) and Science book reviews (www.scienceshelf.com)
Re: Interpreting Burt's diagrams
April 10, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28752
Hi Fred, I appreciate it that you're short of time and still respond. I think we agree on the outcome, but there are a few very significant differences in our interpretations of what is happening en-route. You wrote:
"I prefer the discontinuity that you don't like. I don't give my away twin a staff to reset the clocks. When she changes her frame of reference, she knows to use her new frame of reference's array of clocks."
I've got no idea what the away twin will do with her own set of synchronized clocks. In my interpretation, they are there for the home twin to observe as they fly past him. My interpretation also has a discontinuity, but it is only because the away twin's clocks have been resynchronized and the one next to the home twin physically shows a different time. Not too unlike when flying from London to NY and noticing that all clocks around shows 5 hours less than yours.
"If he hasn't yet detected her turn around, he will be judging her age by the clocks in her original frame of reference. (I may have missed something in my skim reading, but that's what I picked up.) Otherwise, he is relying on a promise that she might not be able to keep (because her rockets might not work)."
Yep, you've missed something here. :) My away twin has only one set of synchronized clocks and they are instantly resynchronized (by staff) when the turnaround has happened. So brother definitely notices the moment of sister's turnaround - a clock next to him that has just read 6 years+ now suddenly reads 2 years-.
I still think we have a fundamental difference in interpreting what is directly observable occurrences and what is conjecture of what happens. It does not influence the final result, but IMHO, these issues are what fuels the 'paradox'.
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Re2: Interpreting Burt's diagrams
April 10, 2008 by Fred Bortz, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28756
Burt writes: "I've got no idea what the away twin will do with her own set of synchronized clocks."
My view is that the clocks belong to the inertial frame of reference not to the observer in that frame. She changes frames of reference and thus changes the applicable set of clocks.
The problem I have with the immediate re-synching of "her" clocks is that (androgynous) staff member Lee doesn't know for certain that Jill has changed frames of reference until a signal reaches Lee's position. Until that point, all Lee knows is that Jill intended to reverse her velocity relative to Jack.
Fred Bortz -- Science and technology books for young readers (www.fredbortz.com) and Science book reviews (www.scienceshelf.com)
Re: Re2: Interpreting Burt's diagrams
April 11, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28774
Hi Fred, yea it looks like we are also going in circles now! :(
You wrote: "The problem I have with the immediate re-synching of "her" clocks is that (androgynous) staff member Lee doesn't know for certain that Jill has changed frames of reference until a signal reaches Lee's position. Until that point, all Lee knows is that Jill intended to reverse her velocity relative to Jack."
But I spot this exact problem with your view as well. Not until Jill's message that she has changed inertial frames reaches distant observers will they know which set of synchronized clocks is applicable.
Anyway, we agreed that it boils down to two different explanations for the same end result and as such is not really relevant.
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Circles or spirals? We are going round, so I'll close with this
April 11, 2008 by Fred Bortz, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28791
Burt's problem with my view is:
"Not until Jill's message that she has changed inertial frames reaches distant observers will they know which set of synchronized clocks is applicable."
But distant observers can then recompute if necessary. The table I included in an earlier message is developed on just such an assumption.
I guess I'm more comfortable saying that time dilation of the other is real for both of them, which affects the clock rates. Likewise the mis-synchronization is real for both of them, which may affect the total elapsed time. Jack doesn't change reference frames, so he can compute Jill's elapsed time from her rate alone (and it agrees with his measurements).
Jill, on the other hand, needs to correct for mis-synchrony.
That's the key to our different views: clock rate vs. total elapsed time and when to apply a correction for mis-synchrony.
Fred Bortz -- Science and technology books for young readers (www.fredbortz.com) and Science book reviews (www.scienceshelf.com)
shape and limite
April 12, 2008 by Anonymous, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28973
all shape fit inside a circle....but using one unlimited for expansion purposes will be without control. now using cube will give the rectangle possibility,but blocking the outside by a rectangle will lock or hold what we still call time.inertia and vacuum are not in or belong to the same family.the equality have to pass as harmony,curiosity in quantum or first motivation of connectivity ,,,,,the elimination of potential parter ....all now motion and wave ,c,photon........are unit,and will not conflict..by simply good calculation...we treat them as unique system.....philippe martin
Burt's can of worms
April 5, 2008 by Fred Bortz, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28596
Burt, et. al.,
I hate to do this, but I've been spending too much time on this, and I need to tend to work that pays me.
So I'm opting out, with a suggestion for a different situation that might be productive. The difference is that it involves only one acceleration, and thus, before that acceleration, the two parties necessarily disagree on which has aged more.
Jack and Jill are in inertial frames of reference, moving at a speed v with respect to one another, a speed that produces a 50% time dilation and length contraction.
In Jack's frame, at L light-years away is a pylon with a clock that is synchronized with his watch. This is in a universe where each inertial frame of reference is studded with its own mile-markers and synchronized clocks. (I could compute L, but it isn't necessary.)
As they zip past one another, they agree that Jill will go as far of that pylon (leg 1) and turn around to achieve the same relative speed in the opposite direction. They set their watches to zero as they pass, and agree to compare watches when they zip past each other on the return trip (leg 2).
Because of time dilation and length contraction, Jill sees the pylon as L/2 ly ahead and measures her travel time as 8 years. But in her frame, she measures Jack aging as only 4 years on the first leg. He measures the time for leg 1 as 16 years, which is what Jill sees on the pylon clock, but her interpretation is that Jack's clocks are out of synchrony.
Jill thus has a direct measurement in her frame of the mis-synchrony of Jack's watch and the pylon clock as 12 years. When she turns around and achieves the same speed as before relative to Jack, she is in a new frame of reference in which her mis-synchrony with Jack is exactly the same as before but reversed in sign. She uses a different set of clocks that tell her Jack's watch has advanced 24 additional years, so his watch "now" (in Jill's new frame) shows 28 years have elapsed they met. In her frame, her watch reads 8 years elapsed time at turnaround. In Jack's frame, he measures the elapsed time as 16 years and Jill's aging as 8 years.
On leg 2, Jack's watch again advances 4 years in Jill's frame and 16 in his own frame. And Jill's watch advances 8 years in both her frame and Jack's. When they zip past one another, therefore, both Jack and Jill agree that Jill has aged 16 years and Jack has aged 32.
Summary:
Place-Jack's measurements-Jill's measurements
Start-----Jack 0 Jill 0----------Jack 0 Jill 0
Before turn-Jack 16 Jill 8-------Jack 4 Jill 8
at pylon
After turn--Jack 16 Jill 8-------Jack 28 Jill 8
at pylon
2nd meeting-Jack 32 Jill 16------Jack 32 Jill 16
Each measures the other's elapsed time by the knowledge of their relative speed. Because she changes inertial frames of reference at the turnaround, Jill needs to introduce an additional correction due to changing her frame of reference.
Perhaps it is better to talk about the need to correct Jill's measurements than to speak of Jack aging rapidly in Jill's changing frame of reference during the reversal. But in either case, Jill's measurement of Jack's elapsed time makes a jump during the turnaround.
Only after Jill has accelerated do they agree on which is older.
And with that, I need to leave the discussion and get to work on a review of a book called Bonk about science and sex. I'm not allowed to have a headache for that job!
Fred Bortz -- Science and technology books for young readers (www.fredbortz.com) and Science book reviews (www.scienceshelf.com)
Re: Burt's can of worms
April 5, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28601
Hi Fred, pity that you have to opt out, but it's understandable.
I agree with most of what you wrote, since it is a variant of the twin paradox, not the "real thing", where the twins start off with no relative motion.
I will argue that they can only agree on who aged slower right at the end, when they can compare clocks directly again. Anything in-between represents a 'leap of faith'. The reason is that neither could verify the other's clock synchronization and any inferences made are theory dependent. If we stick to what's directly observable, then you're wrong to state that they know who is aging faster after the turnaround.
In real life, the home twin will in any case have to wait for many years after the turnaround before he can even know that the away twin has actually broken the symmetry. He could then deduce, in a theory dependent way, that she would end up younger then himself when she returns. But I cannot think of any direct observation that he can make to confirm this, before she flies past him again, that is.
Anyway, in a way this is nitpicking, so enjoy your Bonk review!
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Quick reply to Burt
April 6, 2008 by Fred Bortz, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28610
(1) Verification is a red herring. We can postulate standard instruments and honest people.
(2) You don't have to wait until the end to compare or compute results theoretically. With frames of reference studded with mile-markers and clocks, there can be a steady stream of data from each one's frame of reference saying, "The other just passed this marker number n, and our clock readings are Jill t1 and Jack t2." Since we are assuming the theory is sound, those readings would be exactly what we would compute. Thus, when they finally get together, they each have a full record of both sets of measurements, and neither is surprised.
BTW, I'm having fun with Bonk: The Curious Coupling of Science and Sex, although it is not as laugh-out-loud hilarious as the same author's Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers. I just finished the chapter on sex machines, including the author's failed attempt to see the raw data or the apparatus of Masters and Johnson's camera in a simulated penis to get details of the female orgasm.
Stay tuned!
Fred Bortz -- Science and technology books for young readers (www.fredbortz.com) and Science book reviews (www.scienceshelf.com)
Re: Quick reply to Burt
April 6, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 33 weeks ago
Comment: 28624
Hi Fred,
I'm busy with two spacetime diagrams, which may (or may not) change your mind on the issue of the twins! ;)
Not as interesting as "Bonk", I must agree, but watch this space anyway.
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Re: Headache part 2
April 5, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28586
Hi Fred, I'm afraid we don't quite agree. I agree with David's view, who seems to also prefer direct measurement as the 'real' state of affairs, e.g., reading of a clock as you pass it at very close range.
It seems that you want to read the home-twin's wristwatch from a distance and then you have to make a theory dependent calculation to find out what the time of the watch was at some time in the past.
In the scenario that I described, only the home twin has set out a coordinate system with clocks, observers, whatever. The away-twin caries only an on board clock and that's that. Her changes in simultaneity definition do not influence her personal clock or the home twin's coordinate clocks. Based on this, you are wrong when you say:
The traveler has no theory independent way of observing the home twin's age other than by reading the A-synchronized turn-around beacon's clock at close range. As David also said, it does not matter in which direction she is moving or even if she is accelerating - the reading is only dependent on when she reads it and it is ahead of her own clock.
More technically, that beacon clock, being inertial all the time, maximized the observed time interval of the away twin's travel; at the same time, she accelerated out of her inertial frame to a new one and did not maximize the time interval. Or, my favorite: the away twin was present at two events (her home departure and beacon arrival) and she will measure a shorter time interval than any inertial observer not present at both events.
When I have more time, I'll try to make an explicit calculation and demonstrate it on a spacetime diagram.
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Burt wrote: Scruffy is
April 4, 2008 by Scruffy, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28567
Burt wrote:
I don't mind if the issues are converging and we can all learn something. I do get the urge to "woof" if the arguments get absurd and going in circles, though. :)
About what Burt wrote to Fred:
If Burt is right, doesn't it mean that time dilation and length contraction are simply matters of clock synchronization? Then to confuse the issue even more, how can the traveling twin's atomic clock's number of 'ticks' be determined by the home twin's clock synchronization, while she has not adjusted hers even once??
I can feel a dog-of-a-headache coming!
SL: Your Aerospace Watchdog
All is not simply clock synchronization
April 4, 2008 by Halliday, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28576
SL:
As I've tried to illustrate by using alternative clock synchronizations, all is not simply a matter of clock synchronization. (Beware that path of thought. Therein lies madness. :-) In fact, it appears that a good portion of the "goose's" misunderstanding lies near said thinking [though there is certainly more to it].)
Incidentally, if all the issues with Special Relativity were "simply matters of clock synchronization", then all of General Relativity would simply be a matter of arbitrary coordinate systems.
No, there's more to it, there are invariant consequences to the nature of spacetime that go far beyond clock synchronization (or GR's arbitrary coordinates). (In fact, the non-paradox, invariant consequence of the twin "problem" is the fact that the "away" twin ages less than the "stay at home" twin. This is certainly not simply a matter of clock synchronization.)
David
Re: All is not simply clock synchronization
April 5, 2008 by Scruffy, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28587
David wrote on time dilation and length contraction caused by clock synchronization:
I do agree, that's why I made that "headache inducing" statement. What I've learned out of this long (and valued) exchange of views can be summarized as:
(i) yes, clock synchronization does play a role in resolving the paradoxes of relativity, but,
(ii) time dilation and length contraction are real measurable phenomena, but,
(iii) length contraction is not physical in the sense that it puts stresses on the object, and, (perhaps to satisfy Burt)
(iv)Bell's spaceships do put stresses on the rod or string because they stretch it in the proper frame of the object.
Any other lessons learned, anyone?
SL: Your Aerospace Watchdog
Doggone headache!
April 4, 2008 by Fred Bortz, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28569
EDIT ADDED AT THE END
Scruffy says:
To answer Burt:
Time dilation tells us that the remote clock is behind the traveler's clock (in time) as the traveler approaches it (in space).
We don't agree that the difference in aging in monotonic for both. I agree that it is monotonic in the stay-home twin's frame, but not for the traveler.
Time dilation tells me that traveler must observe the stay-home twin to be aging more slowly during cruising. Otherwise--and this is the key point--we could distinguish between their two inertial frames during those periods, in violation of SR.
Let's assume there is a very fast turnaround in a distance small enough that we don't have to consider time of flight for the light of the pylon clock to the traveler. That means a very fast switch in mis-synchrony occurs. Before the turnaround, the traveler sees the pylon clock running behind. After, the traveler sees the pylon clock running ahead. The traveler, who apparently can withstand enormous g-forces :), therefore measures the stay-home twin to have a large jump in age due to the turnaround.
EDIT: I think we're addressing the wrong question here, since the traveler has to correct the pylon clock for mis-synchrony to compute the age of the distant twin "now" in the traveler's frame. That correction changes sign as the relative motion changes direction. So the pylon clock is probably ahead of the traveler's clock, but the traveler still measures that the stay-home twin is younger before the turn-around and older after. That preserves the indistinguishability of the reference frames in the coasting periods. And now I have a headache!
Fred Bortz -- Science and technology books for young readers (www.fredbortz.com) and Science book reviews (www.scienceshelf.com)
Re: Doggone headache!
April 5, 2008 by Burt, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28588
Hi Fred, here's a (slow, long-winded, boring) cure for the headache, I hope!
You, like many academics that I know of, desperately try to show that the inertial phases of the 'twin paradox' must be fully reciprocal in observations, otherwise one of them can find out who is moving and who is not. Totally unnecessary headaches - the twins know who has accelerated.
The away twin (Jill) was present when the home twin (Jack) set up his synchronized clocks in their common inertial frame and she agreed that they all measure her brother's lapse of time. Now Jill accelerates away and reach her cruising speed. From her knowledge of Jack's synchronized clocks, she reads his elapsed time straight from every clock that she passes. Consequently, she knows without doubt that he ages faster than herself.
Now let Jill also, after her acceleration, set up her own coordinate system of synchronized clocks at fixed distances. Jack, however is in a much worse position than Jill - he cannot (and could not) directly verify what Jill did; he can read time off one of Jill's coordinate clocks passing by, but does not really know what that time means. A direct interpretation of the clocks will tell him that Jill ages faster than him, because those clocks will all be ahead of his own clock. That solves the reciprocity issue, but it actually tells Jack very little else.
That is unless Jack makes a number of relativity theory dependent calculations and with his knowledge of how Jill accelerated away, determine how much synchronization offset Jill's clocks would have and compensate for that. He will then find that Jill ages slower than him and can determine what her age ought to be at any time. Since no direct measurement is possible, it destroys reciprocity completely. Jill reads off and Jack calculates.
Now, the clincher, I hope! If Jill were never at rest in Jack's home frame, but just whizzed passed him at the start of the mission, she would have been in exactly the same dilemma as what Jack was above, not knowing anything about Jack's clock synchronization status. Complete reciprocity here; both calculates. Not so when acceleration is part of the test.
This may be interpreted as: there is no time dilation directly measurable between two purely inertial frames in relative motion. Neither of them time dilates relative to the other, unless one (or both) accelerate(s) in a way that makes a direct measurement possible.
Ouch! Now I have opened another can of worms! :)
Regards,
Burt Jordaan (www.Relativity-4-Engineers.com)
Re: Doggone headache!
April 4, 2008 by Halliday, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28574
Fred:
Unfortunately, you appear to have misunderstood Burt. The set of A-synchronized clocks "everywhere" is really just a way of making the time portion of A's coordinate system (within A's reference frame) "physical". So the readings on A's clocks, that B will observe, are simply a realization of A's coordinate time. Just think of a Minkowski spacetime diagram where A is stationary (in the diagram).
This is most certainly not the same as asking what time intervals a set of B referenced/synchronized observers will "see" when observing A's wristwatch. Instead it's really like asking what proper time interval has passed for B when traveling a velocity v relative to A's reference frame: B is comparing his "wristwatch" time to A's coordinate time.
(ΔτB)2 = (ΔtB)2 - (ΔxB/c)2 = (ΔtB)2 - (ΔtBv/c)2 = (ΔtB)2 (1-v2/c2)
where ΔτB is the change in B's proper time, and ΔtB is the change in coordinate time B has passed, in A's reference frame. So ΔτB < ΔtB (A's set of clocks will always be running ahead-of/faster-than B's "wristwatch" time).
What I believe you, Fred, are trying to get at is a set of B synchronized clocks/observers: One set for B's journey away from A, and another for B's journey back toward A. Your speeding up and such of B's observations of A's "wristwatch" time, via such B synchronized clocks/observers, is due to the "shifting" of such synchronizations, if one were to attempt such a thing. (The problem is, unless we use three observers, all in inertial frames—A, Bo for B's outgoing journey, and Bi for B's incoming journey—then there is no physical way to accomplish the resynchronization you envision. Of course, if we do use the three observers, each in different inertial frames, we get a discontinuity in the observation of A's "wristwatch" time at the pylon.)
Unfortunately, Fred, this leads to you misrepresenting what will be read off the pylon's clock, as B changes direction. There is no physical way, even under such high g-forces, for the pylon clock to change its reading as B turns around. (Although it appears from your EDIT that you recognized your mistake.)
David
Headache part 2
April 4, 2008 by Fred Bortz, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28581
David states, "What I believe you, Fred, are trying to get at is a set of B synchronized clocks/observers."
No, David. What I am trying to do is finding a way of resolving the fact that (1) B must observe A to age more slowly during the coasting portions with the fact that (2) B observes A to be older at the end.
You're right about what I was doing in my edit. However, my understanding of the pylon clock is that it is always synchronized with A's wristwatch in A's frame of reference. That means it is out of synchrony with A's wristwatch in B's frame of reference.
Just before the turnaround, B reads the pylon's clock. It measures the time that A has observed, which is, as Burt says, longer than the time B has observed. However, B notes that A has been aging slower and the reason for the greater time on the clock is mis-synchrony.
At that point, in B's frame of reference, A has aged less but measured more time because A's clocks are not synchronized in B's frame. Just after the turnaround, B notes that the time on the pylon clock is barely changed, but the sign of the mis-synchrony is now reversed. Now, for the first time, A and B agree that A is older. But they once again disagree about who is aging more slowly on the coasting trip back home.
So Burt is not quite right to say that the traveling twin measures the stay-home twin to be older before the turn-around. The traveling twin measures the stay-home twin to be younger before the turn around begins, but older after it is done.
What happens during the reversal, no matter how brief, is that the traveler observes a period of rapid aging for the stay-home twin in the traveler's reference frame. The measured aging rate is due to a change and sign reversal of mis-synchrony, but it is nonetheless a valid measurement for the traveler.
Each can tell by observing the other that there are periods of relative acceleration between them. But only the traveler experiences periods of time in a non-inertial frame. It is that asymmetry that leads to the age difference that they agree on when once again at rest with respect to one another, but their descriptions of how that age difference accumulated in their individual frames of reference are necessarily different.
Which experience is "real"? If we equate "realness" with validity of measurements, then the answer is both!
I think Burt and I agree with each other on that answer.
Fred Bortz -- Science and technology books for young readers (www.fredbortz.com) and Science book reviews (www.scienceshelf.com)
RE The twins paradox
April 3, 2008 by Anonymous, 1 year 34 weeks ago
Comment: 28520
On the twins and time dilation, I would have thought that would have been resolved by the variation on muon decay with velocity which nicely agrees with the Lorentz transform as well as atomic clocks flown around on jet aircraft etc. In any case the travelers frame is no longer the reference frame for the none traveling twin and the traveling twins’ outgoing frame is different from his inbound frame. When the traveling twin returns he must de-accelerate to return to the twins’ original reference frame. If we set up the twins experiment it might prove interesting . Twin A stays at home, twin B travels. A’s referenced frame has a clock, which is synchronized with a similar clock attached to a pylon that marks the turning point for the return trip. The pylon and clock are stationary with respect to A’s reference frame so that the pylon clock keeps time with A’s clock, second for second and hour for hour. A clock in B’s space ship is also synchronized with A’s clock. A and B are in agreement on the time and location of the clocks and pylon. A and B are also equipped with identical rulers. The pylon is at a distance that will take a space ship traveling at 0.866c 20 hours to reach by A’s clock and the pylon clock, note that the pylon and pylon clock are in the same frame as A. B enters the ship and at an agreed time takes off and proceeds towards the pylon at 0.866c. As B approaches the pylon he notes that his clock reads almost 10 hours of elapsed time. Just as the ship reaches the pylon we play god and freeze time. B notes that his clock reads 10 hours elapsed time. He then notes that A’s ruler is shorter than his by half, measuring the distance from A to the pylon with A’s ruler shows that it is the same distance “L†that was used to determine the flight time on A’s clock of 20 hours. However when B measures the distance with his ruler it is L/2, comparing his flight time of 10 hours to L/2 results in a velocity of 0.866c which was the agreed upon velocity. Knowing that he determines that A’s clock should read 5 hours, remember that SR allows B to consider A the moving frame in relation to him, thusly A’s clock must run slower than his clock. But using the calculated elapsed time for A’s clock and either A or B’s ruler the velocities are impossible. The problem here being that while B knows when his clock started he and A are now in different frames and he has no idea when A’s clock started as synchronization was lost when the frames changed. Going to A for a moment his ruler and his clock result in the original length L and the predetermined flight time of 20 hours with a resulting velocity of 0.866c however using B’s ruler and a calculated clock rate results in a length of 2L and an elapsed time of 10 hours, while the elapsed time is correct the resulting velocities are impossible. This time A knows when B’s clock started but he is trying to use B’s ruler in his frame. Now lets let B stop at the pylon and freeze time again. This time B has no relative motion with respect to A. Looking at the pylon clock he reads an elapsed time of 20 hours while his clock reads 10 hours. Checking A’s ruler he finds it agrees with his he also notes that his clock runs at the same rate as the pylon clock. He also notes that using his clock and ruler or A’s ruler he has an apparent velocity that is greater than c, his only logical assumption is that he has experienced less time during this leg of the trip than A. The return trip is a carbon copy of the outbound trip as far as A and B are concerned, as his acceleration times time vectors add to zero and the velocity times time vectors add to zero when he stops he is back in A’s frame of reference and at the location at which he started. He compares his clock with A’s clock and they are running at the same rate, tick for tick but B’s clock registers 20 hours while A’s registers 40 hours. Note that while B’s out going frame and his inbound frame are identical as far as A is concerned the are not the same frame as the relative velocity difference between the out bound frame, vo, and the inbound frame, vi, is (vo+vi)/(1+vo*vi). The apparent paradox is the result of four frame changes in this case and trying to use devices from one frame to make measurements in a second frame. Additional analyses for the twins paradox may be found at.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/relativity17.htm
An additional note on the Lorentz transform for gamma. The transform does not imply simultaneity or direction. It only is concerned with ratios that are dependent upon relative velocities, as both v and c are squared direction is lost.
Thanks Con Morton